Discussion:
4D Client on Windows 2003 Terminal Server - how to determine where prefs go
(too old to reply)
psmith
2009-03-19 17:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I have a client who is trying to set up Windows 2003 Terminal Server
to run several copies of 4D Client 2004.

We are hitting a snag straight away, since 4D Client wants to create
its preference file and the cache files in the Administrator folder.

I imagine there must be a way to get 4D Client to create the files in
the current user's account.

Does anyone have any advice?


Thanks,


P. Smith

TSE International

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Bill Weale
2009-03-19 17:52:31 UTC
Permalink
I think I've done this accidentally by installing the 4D Client app
at the user, as opposed to all users, level.

(If that's not what happened, I'd like to know what did!)

Bill
Post by psmith
Hi,
I have a client who is trying to set up Windows 2003 Terminal
Server to run several copies of 4D Client 2004.
We are hitting a snag straight away, since 4D Client wants to
create its preference file and the cache files in the Administrator
folder.
I imagine there must be a way to get 4D Client to create the files
in the current user's account.
Does anyone have any advice?
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psmith
2009-03-19 18:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Bill,

Do you mean you got it to work that way, or not work?

By "installing the 4D Client app at the user..." do you mean
installing it with the installation DVD, when logged on at the user
level?


Thanks,


P. Smith

TSE International
Post by Bill Weale
I think I've done this accidentally by installing the 4D Client app
at the user, as opposed to all users, level.
(If that's not what happened, I'd like to know what did!)
Bill
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Bill Weale
2009-03-19 18:33:12 UTC
Permalink
By mistake, I installed manually 4D Client v 2004, not a shortcut,
into a C:\Documents and Settings\user\Start Menu\Programs\ directory
instead of C:\Program Files\4D Client\.

It worked as long as the logged-in user was user. It turned out that
several people used the machine, all with their own logins. Only 2
people needed to use the 4D Client app, so I installed another
instance in the 2nd user's Start Menu\Programs directory. No one
logged in under any other user can "see" the app.

This arrangement appears to work OK, including saving user-specific
prefs.

I don't know though how TS works--whether it creates its own multiple
instances of the app and, so, this approach would confuse it.

Bill
Post by psmith
Bill,
Do you mean you got it to work that way, or not work?
By "installing the 4D Client app at the user..." do you mean
installing it with the installation DVD, when logged on at the user
level?
Thanks,
P. Smith
TSE International
Post by Bill Weale
I think I've done this accidentally by installing the 4D Client
app at the user, as opposed to all users, level.
(If that's not what happened, I'd like to know what did!)
Bill
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David Ringsmuth
2009-03-19 18:39:24 UTC
Permalink
P,

In a terminal server environment it is very important that no 2 users
log-onto 4D Server with the same Current machine+":-:"+Current machine owner
credentials.

(With credit to Tony Ringsmuth) In startup create a record, save it and keep
it locked to the current user, with the unique log-on credentials each user
has. (Those credentials that defined the cache file path).

Test to see if that record is locked before allowing the user to continue in
their session.

In the background search to find any these kind of records that are unlocked
and delete them, as the user is no longer in 4D Client.

On Quit, delete the record for the current user.

This prevents over-writing the cache file with duplicate users on the same
computer.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: 4d_tech-bounces-d2/MUvgItPNWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org [mailto:4d_tech-bounces-d2/MUvgItPNWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of psmith
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:47 PM
To: 4D iNug Technical
Subject: 4D Client on Windows 2003 Terminal Server - how to determine where
prefs go

Hi,

I have a client who is trying to set up Windows 2003 Terminal Server
to run several copies of 4D Client 2004.

We are hitting a snag straight away, since 4D Client wants to create
its preference file and the cache files in the Administrator folder.

I imagine there must be a way to get 4D Client to create the files in
the current user's account.

Does anyone have any advice?


Thanks,


P. Smith

TSE International

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Michael Bond
2009-03-19 21:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Ringsmuth
P,
In a terminal server environment it is very important that no 2 users
log-onto 4D Server with the same Current machine+":-:"+Current machine owner
credentials.
(With credit to Tony Ringsmuth) In startup create a record, save it and keep
it locked to the current user, with the unique log-on credentials each user
has. (Those credentials that defined the cache file path).
Test to see if that record is locked before allowing the user to continue in
their session.
In the background search to find any these kind of records that are unlocked
and delete them, as the user is no longer in 4D Client.
On Quit, delete the record for the current user.
This prevents over-writing the cache file with duplicate users on the same
computer.
David
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of psmith
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:47 PM
To: 4D iNug Technical
Subject: 4D Client on Windows 2003 Terminal Server - how to determine where
prefs go
Hi,
I have a client who is trying to set up Windows 2003 Terminal Server
to run several copies of 4D Client 2004.
We are hitting a snag straight away, since 4D Client wants to create
its preference file and the cache files in the Administrator folder.
I imagine there must be a way to get 4D Client to create the files in
the current user's account.
Does anyone have any advice?
Thanks,
P. Smith
TSE International
There is a simpler way. Microsoft have provided a Group Policy under
"Computer Configuration/Administrative Templates/Windows
Components/Terminal Services" called "Restrict Terminal Services users
to a single remote session". You access Group policies from Start/Run
and enter gpedit.msc
Post by David Ringsmuth
From the explanation: "If the status is set to Enabled, users who log
on remotely via Terminal Services will be restricted to a single
session on that server (either active or disconnected). If the user
leaves the session in a disconnected state, the user automatically
reconnects to that session at next logon."

Setting this group policy setting should restrict your users to one
session each preventing the clash that has occurred. Of course it
means that you will have to provide each user with a separate login.
Though that is probably a good idea anyway from a security standpoint.

Group policies are a great way to get the Terminal Server running in
exactly the manner that you desire.

Michael Bond
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psmith
2009-03-20 10:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to all for responding.


P. Smith

TSE International
Post by Michael Bond
There is a simpler way. Microsoft have provided a Group Policy under
"Computer Configuration/Administrative Templates/Windows
Components/Terminal Services" called "Restrict Terminal Services users
to a single remote session". You access Group policies from Start/Run
and enter gpedit.msc
Post by David Ringsmuth
From the explanation: "If the status is set to Enabled, users who log
on remotely via Terminal Services will be restricted to a single
session on that server (either active or disconnected). If the user
leaves the session in a disconnected state, the user automatically
reconnects to that session at next logon."
Setting this group policy setting should restrict your users to one
session each preventing the clash that has occurred. Of course it
means that you will have to provide each user with a separate login.
Though that is probably a good idea anyway from a security standpoint.
Group policies are a great way to get the Terminal Server running in
exactly the manner that you desire.
Michael Bond
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Tom Benedict
2009-03-20 11:22:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi David,
Post by David Ringsmuth
In a terminal server environment it is very important that no 2 users
log-onto 4D Server with the same Current machine+":-:"+Current
machine owner credentials.
(With credit to Tony Ringsmuth) In startup create a record, save it and
keep
Post by David Ringsmuth
it locked to the current user, with the unique log-on credentials each
user
Post by David Ringsmuth
has. (Those credentials that defined the cache file path).
Test to see if that record is locked before allowing the user to
continue in
Post by David Ringsmuth
their session.
In the background search to find any these kind of records that are
unlocked
Post by David Ringsmuth
and delete them, as the user is no longer in 4D Client.
On Quit, delete the record for the current user.
This prevents over-writing the cache file with duplicate users on the
same
Post by David Ringsmuth
computer.
Can you expand on this any? I'm asking because we have run 4D Client on
Terminal Server for nearly four years now without doing this test. At
least I don't think we do this test.

Thanks,

Tom Benedict
Free & Clear, Inc




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Akram Hamed
2009-03-20 12:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,
Need help
How can I connect 4D Client with 4D Server over the internet?
Or any other idea to do it.
I'm using 4D2004

Thanks,
Regards
Akram Hamed


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Koen Van Hooreweghe
2009-03-20 12:47:33 UTC
Permalink
v11...

Koen
Post by Akram Hamed
How can I connect 4D Client with 4D Server over the internet?
Or any other idea to do it.
--------------------
Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
bvbaCompass-***@public.gmane.org


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Matthias Schmidt
2009-03-20 12:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Akram Hamed
Hi all,
Need help
How can I connect 4D Client with 4D Server over the internet?
Or any other idea to do it.
I'm using 4D2004
- you need an ip address (convenient with a dns entry - dynalias worked
for us)
- you need to open the appropriate port in your firewall to do so (the
default port is 19813)
- you could also redirect a certain hostname to the port of 4D Server.
- you need a connection, which is fast enough (DSL or something like that)

you might want to consider upgrading to v11, because it is optimized for
WAN connections.


cheers,
Matthias

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Randy Engle
2009-03-20 13:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Akram,

Yes, it can certainly be done.
We have one customer who connects over the internet.

We have a relatively large structure (180+ tables).
Loads quite a few arrays on startup.

It takes 3-4 minutes to start.
Thereafter, it is "usable", just barely "acceptable".
3-5 seconds to open a given (fairly large) record and entry form.

Not great, but usable.

I recommend using Terminal Services/Citrix or I hear the v11 is much, much
faster. Can't verify that.

Randy Engle, Director
XC2 Software, LLC
mailto: randy.engle-***@public.gmane.org



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Ed Glassgow
2009-03-20 13:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Akram,

I have several databases with internet connectivity. The performance
depends greatly on the speed of the internet upstream out of the
connection to your 4D Server machine. I have two almost identical
databases, one with average upstream speed and one with blazing fast
upstream speed and the difference is from barely usable to not bad at
all. Of course, the speed depends very much on the structure of the
database and the amount of information that needs to be transmitted for
each record accessed.

As to how to do it... there are a variety of ways including terminal
services, as suggested by Randy Engle in another response. However, in
my installations I have the 4D server machine running on a local network
and have configured the internet router to forward the port being used
by 4D Server to the 4D Server machine (which varies by version of 4D
Server). This requires that you have a static IP address (or, as I do
in several instances, subscribe to a dynamic IP service like Dynip),
that you have a static local IP address for the machine running 4D
Server and have the expertise to accomplish all that. You may need to
unblock firewalls, depending on your security.

Once all this is done, access the server remotely by running 4D Client,
click on the "Custom" tab, give the database a name (really anything so
that you can remember what machine this will access in the future) and
enter the network address (either a static IP address like 10.6.12.47 or
a DNS name like akram.dynip.com) and hit the OK button. If everything
is configured correctly, the connection to the server will be made and
things will happen very much like you are on the local network, just a
lot slower. For example, I have a client in Evergreen, Colorado. I
just made a connection to their 4D database from a machine that had
never accessed that database before. It took about 3 minutes to
download the structure and plugins before opening). However, I just
accessed their database from a machine that I normally use, where all
that is already cached, and it took 5 seconds to open the database to
where it was ready to go.

Using a 4D database over the internet is not perfect and is sometimes
irritatingly slow. However, I find that it is very nice to have that
option to retrieve data, check status, post payments, do invoicing and
to do occasional tweaks to the programming.

Ed
Post by Akram Hamed
Hi all,
Need help
How can I connect 4D Client with 4D Server over the internet?
Or any other idea to do it.
I'm using 4D2004
Thanks,
Regards
Akram Hamed
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Bradley D. Perkins
2009-03-20 15:50:13 UTC
Permalink
To add to what everyone else has said: In addition to having fast
connections at both ends, you also need to consider network latency and
how many "hops" a request will have to make to get from client to server
and back. Even with fast connections it is possible to have a barely
usable system or one that can be fair at times, but not usable at others.
If you can test a traceroute from you proposed client locations to the
server you can get an idea what you might be faced with.

Someone once published some figures that said if you had less than N hops
and no hops was more than M milliseconds you should be OK. I don't recall
what those figures were.

We used to do it, but have since moved the functionality to web-based
systems or standalone apps that use custom TCP/IP protocols. If I had to
do it over I'd definitely consider a Terminal Services-like solution.

-- Brad Perkins

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Keith R. White
2009-03-20 16:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Hello

Is anyone using 4DAF in a production environment using 4D Server with an existing user base using 4D Client?

What we've found:-

When using 4DAF with 4D 2004.7r3, you put the 4DAF "Support" stuff in the Extras folder on the server. This folder is copied to all 4D Client machines when they connect. You can see this happening as you get "Duplicating Resources locally".

This process takes some time to complete (the Extras folder contains many files and it's total size is not trivial).

Now, this would not be a huge problem if it only happened on first connect or if the Server Extras folder had changed. Actually 4D Client usually does exactly this, I believe.

BUT...

The Extras folder on the 4D Server is updated every so often by a Scheduled process in 4DAF whether any 4DAF configuration changes have been made or not.


Bottom line...Currently I can't see how 4D Web 2.0 Pack can be deployed in a production environment with even a modest number of 4D Client users.


Any experiences/feedback appreciated.

Regards

Keith White
Synergist Express Ltd, UK.
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