Discussion:
The competition
(too old to reply)
Kirk Brooks
2013-12-28 21:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Walt,
i'm back from some vacation time and catching up on things so I just came
across your response.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My concern about 4D in
general is that all the points you make have been just as true for the last
ten years at least and yet 4D continues to languish in obscurity and
continues to fail to attract many new customers. It's been pretty well
documented that the majority of 4D devs are guys like you and me who
started using it a long, long time ago for exactly the reasons you list.

The company needs more than a great product and great engineering. Apple is
the obvious company to try to emulate. They had the best OS going for years
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Walt Nelson (Manila)
2013-12-30 00:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Kirk.

Yes, we know by now that 4D is amazing with technology, but they are lousy at marketing. One thing they totally don't "get" is how important it is to provide at least one complete and powerful example of how to use 4D in the real world.

"If it is to be, it's up to me."
So I have decided to release a product which a brand new 4D developer can use to "Hit the ground running." Foundation used to be the ticket, but it is a bit long in the tooth. Also, I notice that the Foundation example on the web site is v12; it does not appear that much effort is going into keeping up with the advances in 4D technology with variables, menus, localization, etc.

So I have decided to release an "Application Development Environment" that goes far beyond Foundation to help a new developer hit the ground running. It also uses the latest 4D technology with the product, I will also offer a Certification Program for my product - something else that we have been suggesting for years, but it is clear will never happen from 4D itself.

Stay tuned...

Regards,

Walt Nelson
Walt Nelson & Associates
Walt-5LYxqKIAaTPSUeElwK9/***@public.gmane.org
(63) 918 803 8933
Sent from my iPad
Post by Kirk Brooks
Hi Walt,
i'm back from some vacation time and catching up on things so I just came
across your response.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My concern about 4D in
general is that all the points you make have been just as true for the last
ten years at least and yet 4D continues to languish in obscurity and
continues to fail to attract many new customers. It's been pretty well
documented that the majority of 4D devs are guys like you and me who
started using it a long, long time ago for exactly the reasons you list.
The company needs more than a great product and great engineering. Apple is
the obvious company to try to emulate. They had the best OS going for years
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================
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Kirk Brooks
2013-12-30 01:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Walt,
Great. I look forward to see what you do.

I, too, have thought about polishing up something to offer up as a
real-world app. Remember 'Skeleton'? It actually worked as a contact
manager and provided a lot of useful examples of coding. I've thought about
pulling the equivalent of this out of my main database and making it
stand-alone. Seems to me it could fulfill a similar purpose - plus some
sort of contact/partner/people management is core to many business
applications.

I've also got a simpler database I use for research projects and genealogy.
I think I may re-develop this one in v14 (because it is fairly simple w/o a
lot of tables) as a way to teach myself the new program. That's another one
that could be useful right out of the gate and demonstrate numerous
techniques.

Foundation was really useful when Dave wrote it. I think, though, the
fundamental idea of a universal starting place for any kind of 4D app
itself turns into a really complicated endeavour. Personally I think the
idea of 'modules' of code works better. Components are good for thoroughly
discrete tasks and modules are good for classes of tasks.


On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Walt Nelson (Manila)
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hi Kirk.
Yes, we know by now that 4D is amazing with technology, but they are lousy
at marketing. One thing they totally don't "get" is how important it is to
provide at least one complete and powerful example of how to use 4D in the
real world.
"If it is to be, it's up to me."
So I have decided to release a product which a brand new 4D developer can
use to "Hit the ground running." Foundation used to be the ticket, but it
is a bit long in the tooth. Also, I notice that the Foundation example on
the web site is v12; it does not appear that much effort is going into
keeping up with the advances in 4D technology with variables, menus,
localization, etc.
So I have decided to release an "Application Development Environment" that
goes far beyond Foundation to help a new developer hit the ground running.
It also uses the latest 4D technology with the product, I will also offer a
Certification Program for my product - something else that we have been
suggesting for years, but it is clear will never happen from 4D itself.
Stay tuned...
Regards,
Walt Nelson
Walt Nelson & Associates
(63) 918 803 8933
Sent from my iPad
Post by Kirk Brooks
Hi Walt,
i'm back from some vacation time and catching up on things so I just came
across your response.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My concern about 4D in
general is that all the points you make have been just as true for the
last
Post by Kirk Brooks
ten years at least and yet 4D continues to languish in obscurity and
continues to fail to attract many new customers. It's been pretty well
documented that the majority of 4D devs are guys like you and me who
started using it a long, long time ago for exactly the reasons you list.
The company needs more than a great product and great engineering. Apple
is
Post by Kirk Brooks
the obvious company to try to emulate. They had the best OS going for
years
Post by Kirk Brooks
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
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=======================

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Graham Langley
2013-12-30 13:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
So I have decided to release a product which a brand new 4D developer can
use to "Hit the ground running." Foundation used to be the ticket, but it
is a bit long in the tooth.
Walt,

Does your product cover web development?

Cheers,

Graham



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David Adams
2013-12-31 06:58:20 UTC
Permalink
So I have decided to release an "Application Development Environment" that
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
goes far beyond Foundation to help a new developer hit the ground running.
It also uses the latest 4D technology with the product, I will also offer a
Certification Program for my product - something else that we have been
suggesting for years, but it is clear will never happen from
Uh-oh.....now we're going to have a lot of conversations like this:

"Which shell do you use?"

"The one from Walt Nelson."

"Yes, but which shell do you use?"

...

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Guy Algot
2013-12-31 23:19:20 UTC
Permalink
Walt, Foundation is alive and well and almost ready for v14 (certainly working fine under v12 & v13). And there are components available for purchase thru the store.

It's an excellent starting point for any developer or project.
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
So I have decided to release a product which a brand new 4D developer can use to "Hit the ground running." Foundation used to be the ticket, but it is a bit long in the tooth. Also, I notice that the Foundation example on the web site is v12; it does not appear that much effort is going into keeping up with the advances in 4D technology with variables, menus, localization, etc.
Later,
Guy

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hardware, installation, training, support, programming, internet
specializing in 4th Dimension
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they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming."
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Walt Nelson (Manila)
2014-01-01 01:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Guy,

That's good to hear. I'm sure it will welcome a little competition. :-)

Cheers,

Walt Nelson (Manila)
Post by Guy Algot
Walt, Foundation is alive and well and almost ready for v14 (certainly
working fine under v12 & v13). And there are components available for
purchase thru the store.
It's an excellent starting point for any developer or project.
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Jack Des Bouillons
2013-12-30 06:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Huh?

Marketing didn't save Apple...great PRODUCTS saved Apple...and it wasn't the
Mac that did it. The Mac was certainly the best O/S, but slick marketing
didn't move the market share...whole new types of products (iPod, iPhone,
iPad) put Apple where they are today...and I would submit that the success
of these products had less to do with their marketing campaigns and more to
do with their brilliance in design (not just the physical design)...

As always..in my opinion.

Jack des Bouillons
Post by Kirk Brooks
They had the best OS going for years
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
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Walt Nelson (Manila)
2013-12-30 08:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Hello all.

For the past 8 years, I have been "Windows-Only." When my last three clients
who were on Mac switched to Windows, I made the switch also. But now, I want
to buy a Mac to do some testing of a 4D app. I won't be doing day-to-day
computing on this machine; I will just use it for testing of 4D. It can be a
laptop or a desktop machine, but it has to meet the specifications for 4D
v14.

What model would you recommend?

Thanks in advance,

Walt Nelson (Manila)


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Paul Lovejoy
2013-12-30 09:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi Walt,

iMac 20", Mac mini (if you have a monitor and/or keyboard and mouse handy), or Macbook Air 13".

The nice thing about the Macbook Air is you could also install Windows, either on Bootcamp or with a virtual pc, so your machine could also serve your PC business. It makes for a very nice, light little notebook to have when you visit clients (assuming you do so). Of course, you could install Windows on an iMac as well.


Paul
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
For the past 8 years, I have been "Windows-Only." When my last three clients
who were on Mac switched to Windows, I made the switch also. But now, I want
to buy a Mac to do some testing of a 4D app. I won't be doing day-to-day
computing on this machine; I will just use it for testing of 4D. It can be a
laptop or a desktop machine, but it has to meet the specifications for 4D
v14.
What model would you recommend?
Thanks in advance,
Walt Nelson (Manila)
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Sujit Shah
2013-12-30 23:31:38 UTC
Permalink
I think this is misleading the type of mac or PC has nothing to do with
whether it can run 4D or not.
Post by Kirk Brooks
Hi Walt,
iMac 20", Mac mini (if you have a monitor and/or keyboard and mouse
handy), or Macbook Air 13".
The nice thing about the Macbook Air is you could also install Windows,
either on Bootcamp or with a virtual pc, so your machine could also serve
your PC business. It makes for a very nice, light little notebook to have
when you visit clients (assuming you do so). Of course, you could install
Windows on an iMac as well.
Paul
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
For the past 8 years, I have been "Windows-Only." When my last three
clients
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
who were on Mac switched to Windows, I made the switch also. But now, I
want
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
to buy a Mac to do some testing of a 4D app. I won't be doing day-to-day
computing on this machine; I will just use it for testing of 4D. It can
be a
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
laptop or a desktop machine, but it has to meet the specifications for 4D
v14.
What model would you recommend?
Thanks in advance,
Walt Nelson (Manila)
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Jeffrey Kain
2013-12-30 23:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Personally, I think the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro are the two nicest computers I’ve ever used. I use 4D on Windows exclusively, but prefer the Mac for just about everything else. Either of these two computers with Parallels make for a really powerful and portable environment. Just don’t skimp on the RAM.

Combine with a Thunderbolt display or two (essentially a display + dock) and you’ve got a good home office solution as well.

Jeff
Post by Sujit Shah
I think this is misleading the type of mac or PC has nothing to do with
whether it can run 4D or not.
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Mike Kerner
2013-12-31 00:57:36 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure why, for a secondary machine, you wouldn't just get a mini.
It will be the cheapest option, it will work with your existing K/V/M (or
secondary K/V/M's that you have sitting in the corner), and it will save
you a bunch of $. Plus if you want to upgrade the memory, you can do that
yourself.

The iMac is very sexy, and the MBP and Air are both awesome, but as a
secondary machine, none of those will be cost-competitive.

4D runs just fine on a Mini, whether on MacOS or Windows running in a VM.
Post by Jeffrey Kain
Personally, I think the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro are the two nicest
computers I’ve ever used. I use 4D on Windows exclusively, but prefer the
Mac for just about everything else. Either of these two computers with
Parallels make for a really powerful and portable environment. Just don’t
skimp on the RAM.
Combine with a Thunderbolt display or two (essentially a display + dock)
and you’ve got a good home office solution as well.
Jeff
Post by Sujit Shah
I think this is misleading the type of mac or PC has nothing to do with
whether it can run 4D or not.
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Walt Nelson (Manila)
2014-01-02 18:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello all.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I started looking into the pricing of the models suggested, and I was a
little surprised. It has been more than 12 years since I bought a Mac, and I
had forgotten that they generally are about twice the price of Windows
machines with equal configuration.

Last month, I bought a desktop PC that was built to my exact specifications.
It has:
* 16 GB RAM
* 1TB hard disk
* NVIDIA GeForce GT 440 graphics card
* Two CD-ROM RW drives
* Intel Corei7 3.4 GHz processor (Turbo boost to 3.9 GHz)
* A motherboard with Six expansion slots (I will add an SSD soon)
...and the price was the equivalent of about $750.00.

Anywhooo, I lean toward Desktop machines these days, because I carry my iPad
when I travel or commute. I don't need mobile computing nearly as much as I
used to. So I would prefer a desktop model like the iMac. I wish I could do
the same thing that I did with my PC: just buy the CPU and use my existing
monitors.

New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use for testing
4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive alternatives. Maybe I
will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and attach a monitor to it.

Shopping for new toys is fun, but you know what they say:

"The only difference between men and boys...
is the price of their toys."

Walt Nelson (Manila)




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Charles Miller
2014-01-02 19:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use for testing
4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive alternatives. Maybe I
will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and attach a monitor to it.
Not really apples to apples. How much would a 27" monitor of the quality in
iMac run you

Better comparison would be a mac Mini. As you do not have to get a monitor
or keyboard with it?

Jus my 2 cents

Regards

Chuck
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Medland, Paul (QuickWire)
2014-01-02 19:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Walt,

As others have suggested, a mac mini would do the trick. That's what I
have in my office. Time Machine backs up everything nicely. I have had
mine now for three years and love it.

Regards,
--

Paul
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive alternatives. Maybe I
will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and attach a monitor to it.
Bill Weale
2014-01-02 19:31:22 UTC
Permalink
And how many copies of your new shell do you plan to sell to mac OS developers?

As tempted as I am, I'll not get into "evaluating" your reasoning here. It's already been done too many times by too many people.

8-)

--Bill



envoyé par ma Etch-a-Sketch
R.I.P. Andre Cassagnes
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Thanks for all your suggestions.
I started looking into the pricing of the models suggested, and I was a
little surprised. It has been more than 12 years since I bought a Mac, and I
had forgotten that they generally are about twice the price of Windows
machines with equal configuration.
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Paul Lovejoy
2014-01-02 20:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Walt,

I've always found that you get what you pay for.

Still, I imagine $750 equivalent is probably a ton of money in Manila.
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
I started looking into the pricing of the models suggested, and I was a
little surprised. It has been more than 12 years since I bought a Mac, and I
had forgotten that they generally are about twice the price of Windows
machines with equal configuration.
Last month, I bought a desktop PC that was built to my exact specifications.
* 16 GB RAM
* 1TB hard disk
* NVIDIA GeForce GT 440 graphics card
* Two CD-ROM RW drives
* Intel Corei7 3.4 GHz processor (Turbo boost to 3.9 GHz)
* A motherboard with Six expansion slots (I will add an SSD soon)
...and the price was the equivalent of about $750.00.
Anywhooo, I lean toward Desktop machines these days, because I carry my iPad
when I travel or commute. I don't need mobile computing nearly as much as I
used to. So I would prefer a desktop model like the iMac. I wish I could do
the same thing that I did with my PC: just buy the CPU and use my existing
monitors.
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use for testing
4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive alternatives. Maybe I
will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and attach a monitor to it.
"The only difference between men and boys...
is the price of their toys."
Walt Nelson (Manila)
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
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**********************************************************************
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Bill
2014-01-02 22:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Walt,

You might want to check on a refurbished iMac, the prices on those are usually pretty good.
Just a thought...

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Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
I started looking into the pricing of the models suggested, and I was a
little surprised. It has been more than 12 years since I bought a Mac, and I
had forgotten that they generally are about twice the price of Windows
machines with equal configuration.
Last month, I bought a desktop PC that was built to my exact specifications.
* 16 GB RAM
* 1TB hard disk
* NVIDIA GeForce GT 440 graphics card
* Two CD-ROM RW drives
* Intel Corei7 3.4 GHz processor (Turbo boost to 3.9 GHz)
* A motherboard with Six expansion slots (I will add an SSD soon)
...and the price was the equivalent of about $750.00.
Anywhooo, I lean toward Desktop machines these days, because I carry my iPad
when I travel or commute. I don't need mobile computing nearly as much as I
used to. So I would prefer a desktop model like the iMac. I wish I could do
the same thing that I did with my PC: just buy the CPU and use my existing
monitors.
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use for testing
4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive alternatives. Maybe I
will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and attach a monitor to it.
"The only difference between men and boys...
is the price of their toys."
Walt Nelson (Manila)
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
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**********************************************************************
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David Adams
2014-01-03 00:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Like others, I've found the Mac Mini to be an excellent secondary machine
over the years. Small, good enough (and then some for most stuff), quiet,
doesn't draw a lot of power. All good. They seem to be a bit more expensive
now than they used to be but still seem like a pretty good value.

**********************************************************************
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Neil Dennis
2014-01-03 02:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
This is an interesting page on the MacPro

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/173695-apples-new-overpriced-10000-mac-pro-is-2000-cheaper-than-the-equivalent-windows-pc

Neil



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Kirk Brooks
2014-01-06 01:16:56 UTC
Permalink
I was going to post that one too.
Post by Neil Dennis
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
This is an interesting page on the MacPro
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/173695-apples-new-overpriced-10000-mac-pro-is-2000-cheaper-than-the-equivalent-windows-pc
Neil
**********************************************************************
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San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Walt Nelson (Manila)
2014-01-02 19:15:27 UTC
Permalink
I said "motherboard with six expansion slots"

I should have said "Casing with six expansion slots."

Walt Nelson (Manila)
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
I started looking into the pricing of the models suggested, and I was a
little surprised. It has been more than 12 years since I bought a Mac,
and I had forgotten that they generally are about twice the price of
Windows machines with equal configuration.
Last month, I bought a desktop PC that was built to my exact
* 16 GB RAM
* 1TB hard disk
* NVIDIA GeForce GT 440 graphics card
* Two CD-ROM RW drives
* Intel Corei7 3.4 GHz processor (Turbo boost to 3.9 GHz)
* A motherboard with Six expansion slots (I will add an SSD soon)
...and the price was the equivalent of about $750.00.
Anywhooo, I lean toward Desktop machines these days, because I carry my
iPad when I travel or commute. I don't need mobile computing nearly as
much as I used to. So I would prefer a desktop model like the iMac. I
wish I could do the same thing that I did with my PC: just buy the CPU
and use my existing monitors.
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100
so that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing
power. That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use
for testing 4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive
alternatives. Maybe I will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and
attach a monitor to it.
"The only difference between men and boys...
is the price of their toys."
Walt Nelson (Manila)
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html

4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Randy Engle
2014-01-02 19:24:28 UTC
Permalink
That's one of the things I love about you, Walt: Accuracy!

;-)

Welcome back to the Mac world. My G4 has been in mothballs for several
years.
I will likely never touch a Mac again...When you've got a few hundred
customers who wouldn't buy your product if they heard it works on Apple
equipment, we don't even breathe the "M" word around here.

They are much more cool looking though.

Randy Engle
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
I said "motherboard with six expansion slots"
I should have said "Casing with six expansion slots."
**********************************************************************
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Chip Scheide
2014-01-04 05:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Walt -
Mac Mini

you can use your existing monitor and keyboard
although you do have limited internal expansion capabilities
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
I said "motherboard with six expansion slots"
I should have said "Casing with six expansion slots."
Walt Nelson (Manila)
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
I started looking into the pricing of the models suggested, and I was a
little surprised. It has been more than 12 years since I bought a Mac,
and I had forgotten that they generally are about twice the price of
Windows machines with equal configuration.
Last month, I bought a desktop PC that was built to my exact
* 16 GB RAM
* 1TB hard disk
* NVIDIA GeForce GT 440 graphics card
* Two CD-ROM RW drives
* Intel Corei7 3.4 GHz processor (Turbo boost to 3.9 GHz)
* A motherboard with Six expansion slots (I will add an SSD soon)
...and the price was the equivalent of about $750.00.
Anywhooo, I lean toward Desktop machines these days, because I carry my
iPad when I travel or commute. I don't need mobile computing nearly as
much as I used to. So I would prefer a desktop model like the iMac. I
wish I could do the same thing that I did with my PC: just buy the CPU
and use my existing monitors.
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100
so that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing
power. That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use
for testing 4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive
alternatives. Maybe I will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and
attach a monitor to it.
"The only difference between men and boys...
is the price of their toys."
Walt Nelson (Manila)
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html

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Peter Jakobsson
2013-12-30 12:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
What model would you recommend?
Since 1989 (nearly 25 years !) I have sworn by the MacBook Pro 15-Inch retina Quad Core i7 2.6 GHz 4Gb 1.8 Cm 2.02 Kg.

It's the most versatile computer known to man as far as I'm concerned.

Since I've been using them, they started out like this... Loading Image...

And ended up like this.... http://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-pro/

But the great thing is that they still cost exactly the same amount !

P


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Charles Miller
2013-12-30 16:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jakobsson
Since 1989 (nearly 25 years !) I have sworn by the MacBook Pro 15-Inch
retina Quad Core i7 2.6 GHz 4Gb 1.8 Cm 2.02 Kg.
It's the most versatile computer known to man as far as I'm concerned.
Just as a note, you must remember that the new macbook pros can not be
upgraded easily. I think both flash drive (SSD) and memory use a
proprietary design.

I use a 2.2 Ghx Intel core i&
with 16 gig of memory
1 terabyte SSD as main drive
240 Gig SSD in place of the DVD
External DVD

Regards


Chuck
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Jeffrey Kain
2013-12-30 21:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, those late-80s MacBook Pro’s w/ Retina displays were SWEEEET!!
Post by Peter Jakobsson
Since 1989 (nearly 25 years !) I have sworn by the MacBook Pro 15-Inch retina Quad Core i7 2.6 GHz 4Gb 1.8 Cm 2.02 Kg.
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Kirk Brooks
2013-12-30 18:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Walt,
I'm assuming this isn't going to be a primary development machine so with
that in mind I would make a pitch for a 27" iMac with a fusion drive for a
desktop. This will give you a typical user's experience plus a fabulous
screen and an extremely capable machine. The 27" models are the only ones
you can upgrade the memory on without tearing it down.

For a laptop the Air's and the newer 15" models, as has been noted, aren't
modifiable friendly so if you go with one of these get what you want for
the next 2-3 years. For database work I plug my laptop into a $200 24"
Viewsonic monitor. It's decent resolution, fair quality but nice to have
the extra screen space. BTW - on Mac you can use both screens freely since
the 4D windows aren't limited by the MDI window.


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 12:20 AM, Walt Nelson (Manila)
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
For the past 8 years, I have been "Windows-Only." When my last three clients
who were on Mac switched to Windows, I made the switch also. But now, I want
to buy a Mac to do some testing of a 4D app. I won't be doing day-to-day
computing on this machine; I will just use it for testing of 4D. It can be a
laptop or a desktop machine, but it has to meet the specifications for 4D
v14.
What model would you recommend?
Thanks in advance,
Walt Nelson (Manila)
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
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--
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San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Bill
2013-12-30 22:44:38 UTC
Permalink
I recommend you look at an entry level iMac with the 21inch display. Inexpensive and runs 4D version 14 on Mavricks 10.9, which has been certified by 4D.



---------------------------------
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michling-***@public.gmane.org / 214-616-9566
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• Check out our free World Recipe Website
• Looking for Amway Products
• Save Your important pictures and documents
• Your Safety is Our Business
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Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Hello all.
For the past 8 years, I have been "Windows-Only." When my last three clients
who were on Mac switched to Windows, I made the switch also. But now, I want
to buy a Mac to do some testing of a 4D app. I won't be doing day-to-day
computing on this machine; I will just use it for testing of 4D. It can be a
laptop or a desktop machine, but it has to meet the specifications for 4D
v14.
What model would you recommend?
Thanks in advance,
Walt Nelson (Manila)
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
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Douglas von Roeder
2013-12-30 16:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Jack:

Going from memory here…when Steve Jobs returned to Apple his first major
move was to reduce the number of product lines from 7 to 4. In addition to
the Newton, Apple was designing printers (with Canon engines in them), the
QuickTake (I think) digital camera, and a host of other products that were
taking up lots of engineering talent and not producing results that
contributed to the core products. That's a big thing in a tech company —
creating synergies in R&D.

He also instituted a change in attitude. Prior to Steve returning, it was,
as I heard from long term employees at Apple, very easy to get a project
funded. The joke - "What's the difference between Apple Computer and the
Boy Scouts? The Boy Scouts have adult supervision."

Part of the deal that Steve struck was that Apple would license/acquire/use
the NextOS, a much needed change in the OS that Apple could provide.
Pint/Taligent had been a disaster and Apple was dead in the water with the
Windows 95 torpedo coming right at them. About that time, the sage Michael
Dell stated (paraphrasing) that Apple should live up to its fiduciary duty
by liquidating the company and returning the proceeds to the stockholders.
My, how times change, eh?

Apple's smart guys were busy integrating the Next OS into something that
could run on the Mac but there was also a parallel project that ran for
quite some time that I've never seen discussed (though I don't follow Apple
that much). I had the opportunity to work for PowerSchool which was a
division of Apple for a few years and we were in a "remote outpost" in
Folsom, CA.

One bright morning, well after the carnage caused by the Web Objects
version of PowerSchool had cleared up, a couple of engineers from Cupertino
showed up in the midst of our herd of 4D developers. I struck up a
conversation with one of them and the topic turned to OS X and Intel chips.
During the conversation he told me, with no fanfare, that Apple had taken
pains to make sure that OS X was compatible with X86 for years. Having been
a Mac advocate for years (even though I bought my HP laptop when I was an
Apple employee), I was surprised since I'd never heard of that.

Soon afterward, Steve announced that Apple would be moving to the Intel
chip and, as they say, the rest is history.

Apple desperately needed OS X and, to a lesser degree, to make the
transition away from Motorola/IBM who were not putting the R&D money into
chips and, because Apple was buying in relatively small quantities, Apple
wasn't able to reduce chip cost. That's a tough sell when their product
was, relatively speaking, expensive.

Wait, there's more!

After selling iMacs that come in flavors, hence greying the line between
marketing and product, the next move was to get the iPod out the door and
into the hands of "Switchers". The symbiosis between marketing and product
design became pretty tight and "Dude, you're gettin' a Dell" gave way to
the Switchers marketing campaign.

I'm fortunate to have an unopened copy of the first edition of MacWorld
magazine. That issue detailed the release of the Macintosh which
represented a fundamental change in how the public (knowingly) interacts
with computers. Pruning back on Apple's product line, the "flavored" iMacs,
the iPod, and the Switchers campaign can be seen as part of a shift driven
by Steve Jobs and that long term effort is, I believe, as fundamental as
the first one that Steve caused.

I knew the die was cast when Apple made this poster available to its
employees:

Loading Image...

(Pardon the picture quality)


In summary, products are part of the mix, no question but, as Kirk Brooks
et al are wont to highlight, an excellent product does not equate to
dominance or guarantee success. Instead, it's a combination of products,
marketing, and hard work.*



*Everyone using 4D on Windows - make that every one using 4D - should say a
quiet "Thank you" to the band of merry iconoclasts (lead by Dominique
Hermsdorff?) who had the courage and foresight to disobey MDD's stunning
crie de couer at DevCon that "4D would never run on Windows". Ugh.



--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902


On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 10:43 PM, Jack Des Bouillons <
Post by Jack Des Bouillons
Huh?
Marketing didn't save Apple...great PRODUCTS saved Apple...and it wasn't the
Mac that did it. The Mac was certainly the best O/S, but slick marketing
didn't move the market share...whole new types of products (iPod, iPhone,
iPad) put Apple where they are today...and I would submit that the success
of these products had less to do with their marketing campaigns and more to
do with their brilliance in design (not just the physical design)...
As always..in my opinion.
Jack des Bouillons
Post by Kirk Brooks
They had the best OS going for years
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
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FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
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Kirk Brooks
2013-12-30 18:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Jack,
I say since the Mac Apple always had phenomenal products that inspired
messianic loyalty among those of us who bought them. Not unlike 4D. I would
argue, though, that even the iPod could have been overtaken by whatever
crap MS produced and licensed to cheaper mfgs if not for the brilliant
advertising campaign that appealed to mass numbers of people who never
before even thought about buying anything Apple even if they knew about the
Mac.

This is the part 4D has yet to do.

BTW - I'm not suggesting 4D will appeal to the masses as the iPod did. But
if it doesn't broaden it's base and attract new users the market for it,
and us, continues to age into retirement.


On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 10:43 PM, Jack Des Bouillons <
Post by Jack Des Bouillons
Huh?
Marketing didn't save Apple...great PRODUCTS saved Apple...and it wasn't the
Mac that did it. The Mac was certainly the best O/S, but slick marketing
didn't move the market share...whole new types of products (iPod, iPhone,
iPad) put Apple where they are today...and I would submit that the success
of these products had less to do with their marketing campaigns and more to
do with their brilliance in design (not just the physical design)...
As always..in my opinion.
Jack des Bouillons
Post by Kirk Brooks
They had the best OS going for years
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
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FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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**********************************************************************
--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

**********************************************************************
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John E. Bowen
2013-12-30 18:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Jack,

You have, as always, great opinions ;)

Whole new types, new categories of products definitely moved the company,
but the groundwork came before. In my own humble opinion, one turning point
was dumping the huge, confusing product matrix in the "beige box" days,
consolidating all those stupid "channel" marketing plans (business,
education, consumer) into just very few products: desktop iMac (gumdrop),
tower servers, laptops. OK, they had several speeds available for each
product, bigger hard drives, but each was still clearly identifiable. This
was partly a marketing choice, and I think it paid off.

Another thing that wasn't obvious to pay off was dumping different ports
and going with USB. Apple didn't invent it, but they committed to it in a
big way, and now USB is, well, Universal. That was obviously related to the
product itself, but also said "We're about the future."

Considering just computer sales, going from about 0.8% of the market to
2.x% may not seem exciting, but it was better than disappearing entirely.
So Apple was actually around to later reinvent the music player and so on.

Not sure how a hardware discussion relates to 4D as software, though I'll
admit product quality is key.

Just my 2 cents.

John Bowen
GUS Support
jebowenag79-***@public.gmane.org
805-893-5219


On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 10:43 PM, Jack Des Bouillons <
Post by Jack Des Bouillons
Huh?
Marketing didn't save Apple...great PRODUCTS saved Apple...and it wasn't the
Mac that did it. The Mac was certainly the best O/S, but slick marketing
didn't move the market share...whole new types of products (iPod, iPhone,
iPad) put Apple where they are today...and I would submit that the success
of these products had less to do with their marketing campaigns and more to
do with their brilliance in design (not just the physical design)...
As always..in my opinion.
Jack des Bouillons
Post by Kirk Brooks
They had the best OS going for years
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
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FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
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http://www.4d.com/products/new.html

4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Mitchell Shiller
2013-12-30 17:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Just a quick observation.

Go to MacWorld.com.
In the search box type 4D or 4th Dimension.
Last entry is 6 years ago or something ridiculous like that.
No mention of recent 4D versions or porduct. Yes we are cross-platform but..

Then type in FilemakerPro and see the review of their most reason version which gives you web serving of pages created in the database. Very cool. Although I have not tried it myself.

I am a tried and true 4d'er but I find it disconcerting that the major Mac site does not even cover our favorite product.

Mitch




**********************************************************************
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Kirk Brooks
2013-12-30 18:03:19 UTC
Permalink
You know, the first place I saw 4D multi-user actually running was at
MacWorld. On Mac Pluses I think or they may have been SEs. 4D hasn't had a
booth there for years and now I'm not sure it matters.
Post by Mitchell Shiller
Just a quick observation.
Go to MacWorld.com.
In the search box type 4D or 4th Dimension.
Last entry is 6 years ago or something ridiculous like that.
No mention of recent 4D versions or porduct. Yes we are cross-platform but..
Then type in FilemakerPro and see the review of their most reason version
which gives you web serving of pages created in the database. Very cool.
Although I have not tried it myself.
I am a tried and true 4d'er but I find it disconcerting that the major Mac
site does not even cover our favorite product.
Mitch
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
**********************************************************************
--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html

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Jack Des Bouillons
2013-12-30 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
4D was always part of the "business booth" section at Macworld. Tht whole
category has died off the last time I looked...

One thing I will say is that Apple has had brilliant marketing..IF you have
a VERY broad definition of marketing...if one includes product DESIGN as a
marketing feature. I think product design has had more to do with Apple's
success than any other single factor.

Jack des Bouillons
Post by Kirk Brooks
4D hasn't had a
booth there for years and now I'm not sure it matters.
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
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Julio Carneiro
2013-12-30 18:22:11 UTC
Permalink
yep, and even made it into The Net (the movie), remember that? Sandra Bullock runs past 4D's booth on the way to copy a floppy disk… best 4D marketing ever :-)
Post by Jack Des Bouillons
4D was always part of the "business booth" section at Macworld. Tht whole
category has died off the last time I looked...
**********************************************************************
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your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html

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Chuck Miller
2013-12-30 20:13:59 UTC
Permalink
How but sending email to macworld and asking why they haven't reviewed. If they get enough, perhaps they will

Regards


Chuck
Post by Kirk Brooks
You know, the first place I saw 4D multi-user actually running was at
MacWorld. On Mac Pluses I think or they may have been SEs. 4D hasn't had a
booth there for years and now I'm not sure it matters.
Post by Mitchell Shiller
Just a quick observation.
Go to MacWorld.com.
In the search box type 4D or 4th Dimension.
Last entry is 6 years ago or something ridiculous like that.
No mention of recent 4D versions or porduct. Yes we are cross-platform but..
Then type in FilemakerPro and see the review of their most reason version
which gives you web serving of pages created in the database. Very cool.
Although I have not tried it myself.
I am a tried and true 4d'er but I find it disconcerting that the major Mac
site does not even cover our favorite product.
Mitch
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
your applications richer and faster
http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
**********************************************************************
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
PO Box 1720 mailto:cjmiller<AT SIGN>informed-solutions.com
Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
http://www.informed-solutions.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message and any attached documents contain information which may be confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is strictly prohibited. Delivery of this message to any person other than the intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication.





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Jack Des Bouillons
2013-12-30 21:54:16 UTC
Permalink
For quite some time, I have heard reports that the way to go for higher
performance using a Mac as a server is to get an SSD Drive. We are looking
at a new MacMini, and there is a choice between a 1TB Serial, a 1TB fusion
and a 256 GB SSD.

"Configure your Mac mini with a large Serial ATA hard drive. Or choose a
solid-state drive for greater performance. Or get the best of both worlds
and select Fusion Drive."

When I read "get the best of both worlds", my experience tells me that you
usually get "NOT QUITE the best" of either.

Can anyone shed light on what this Fusion Drive might be?

Jack des Bouillons



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Milan Adamov
2013-12-30 22:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Des Bouillons
Can anyone shed light on what this Fusion Drive might be?
It is the combination of flash and spinning hard disk, but I don't think 4D would benefit from it. Simplified, the OS will put most often accessed files to a flash part of the drive, while the other will stay on the spinning disk. Since system files are accessed more often than your 4D database, you don't have any guarantee that your data file will ever be on flash disk.

If you have spare SSD and a hard disk, you can "build" your own Fusion drive to test.

I would recommend to use SSDs anyway.

Milan


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Peter Bozek
2013-12-30 22:17:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Jack Des Bouillons <
Post by Jack Des Bouillons
When I read "get the best of both worlds", my experience tells me that you
usually get "NOT QUITE the best" of either.
Can anyone shed light on what this Fusion Drive might be?
Maybe a little off topic, but Apple used to release new version of MacMini
about once a year - previous version were released in summer 2010, summer
2011 and autumn 2012, so it may be wise to wait a short time for a new
version.
--
Peter Bozek

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Jérôme Pupier
2013-12-31 17:48:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Chuck Miller
Post by Chuck Miller
How but sending email to macworld and asking why they haven't reviewed. If they get enough, perhaps they will
They would review it more often if they had some ad.
;o)


Amicalement,

Jérôme
--------------------------------------------------------------
Your Ad here. Contact the frontdesk
--------------------------------------------------------------

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THOMAS DEMEO
2013-12-30 19:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

My take is that we should be careful for what we ask for. 4D has managed to create a stable platform that generates a consistent amount of work for a small cadre of developers for 20+ years. It has never made the leap to being seen as a hot technology, but it has never collapsed either. The resulting programming rates are above average and unusually stable. There is nothing better in this business than finding a small, profitable niche to work in.

We may all pine for 4D to grow its business more than it has, but there is a generally favorable balance of supply and demand as far as developers go, and that balance has been maintained for a long, long time, especially by tech standards.







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Kirk Brooks
2014-01-02 00:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Thomas,
That's a good point. It's the argument for a boutique, niche product. Is
this what 4D has really become?


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 11:15 AM, THOMAS DEMEO
Post by THOMAS DEMEO
Hi,
My take is that we should be careful for what we ask for. 4D has managed
to create a stable platform that generates a consistent amount of work for
a small cadre of developers for 20+ years. It has never made the leap to
being seen as a hot technology, but it has never collapsed either. The
resulting programming rates are above average and unusually stable. There
is nothing better in this business than finding a small, profitable niche
to work in.
We may all pine for 4D to grow its business more than it has, but there is
a generally favorable balance of supply and demand as far as developers go,
and that balance has been maintained for a long, long time, especially by
tech standards.
**********************************************************************
4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
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--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Ortwin Zillgen
2013-12-30 22:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Des Bouillons
Can anyone shed light on what this Fusion Drive might be?
Fusiondrives have best performance-capacity-price-convenience-ratios.
No need to take care what to copy onto the SSD, or when to move back to the HD, or to keep track of where is the most current version.

my iMac has a fusiondrive (1 TB HD + 128 GB SSD). The OS handles them as a single drive, starting 10.8.2. For more info check ArsTechnica <http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/10/more-on-fusion-drive-how-it-works-and-how-to-roll-your-own/>.
Typeahead on this fusiondrive iMac is usable
- 500000 records to search
- selects containing like, intersect, joins,
- some 3000 found records,
- results into arrays
- string-manipulations to build up a hierarchical listbox.
A harddisk-only PC is way to slow.
I would appreciate the form event On Slowdown Dataentry, which happens in between On After Edit and On Data Change.


Grūße/regards
Ortwin Zillgen
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Arnaud de Montard
2013-12-31 11:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ortwin Zillgen
I would appreciate the form event On Slowdown Dataentry, which happens in between On After Edit and On Data Change.
On timer?

Or find where user's handbrake is…
--
Arnaud de Montard




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Ortwin Zillgen
2013-12-31 17:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnaud de Montard
Post by Ortwin Zillgen
I would appreciate the form event On Slowdown Dataentry, which happens in between On After Edit and On Data Change.
On timer?
Or find where user's handbrake is…
while entering a searchterm, the user should see what might get found.
- few characters, huge selection, many processing-cycles
- many characters, small selection, few processing-cycles
Some users type much faster, than even optimized 4D code can react on. When those users are finished 4D is still processing entries from a couple of characters ago, missing none of the On After Edit-events. Well done 4D, missing no event. But a bad feedback to the user, who experiences 4D being slow.
Trying to solve that problem with current 4D-technology, as there are
- setting On Timer and checking if still the same searchterm before executing or
- running a separate process and only delivering, if still the same searchterm
- not reacting before at least 3 characters are entered, helps a bit
is to no avail besides being a ton of work.
No solution found, back to On Data Change. Better old-fashioned UI than slow UI <http://noisydecentgraphics.typepad.com/design/2008/03/your-companys-a.html>

Starting from V11 4D did update the backend, necessary and very much appreciated and well done.
I'm wishing the development efforts would put more emphasis onto frontend-enhancements starting with V15.



Regards
O r t w i n Z i l l g e n
---------------------------------------------
<mailto:info-x85BCD9UzoazQB+***@public.gmane.org> <http://dddd.mettre.de?4713>
<feed://dddd.mettre.de/dddd.xml> <https://twitter.com/Ozett>
member of developer-network <http://www.die4dwerkstatt.de>


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Tom Benedict
2013-12-31 18:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Adams
"Which shell do you use?"
"The one from Walt Nelson."
"Yes, but which shell do you use?"
The smart one or the good looking one?

Tom Benedict
Alere Wellbeing, Inc

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Charles Miller
2013-12-31 19:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Benedict
Post by David Adams
"Yes, but which shell do you use?"
The smart one or the good looking one?
OK I can't help myself. The bald one or the one with hair
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Sujit Shah
2013-12-31 20:13:04 UTC
Permalink
I am

Shell shocked..
Post by Charles Miller
Post by Tom Benedict
Post by David Adams
"Yes, but which shell do you use?"
The smart one or the good looking one?
OK I can't help myself. The bald one or the one with hair
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Tom Dillon
2013-12-31 20:51:48 UTC
Permalink
OK I can't help myself. The bald one or the one with hair
Are we starting this up again? :-7

The debonaire one or the groovy one?
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John Baughman
2014-01-03 01:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Walt,

For a computer you need for testing purposes only and which will probably never be your main computer why would you even consider buying anything other than a mini. You said you would prefer a box without a keyboard. So unless you are thinking of using it for gaming, $600 books will get you all the power and speed you could possibly need for 4D testing.

Having said that, I would get it with at least 8 gigs of RAM which will bump the price a bit. Unfortunately RAM prices have gone up over the past year. I purchased a new mini a few months ago and found that Apples price for RAM, which have always been exorbitantly high, was actually reasonably close to what I would have had to pay at MacSales. So add another 100 bucks.

Really, a mini is all you need. If you need a Mac, it is a perfect testing machine. When you are not using it for testing it can serve other purposes... security, set top box, etc. I use a MacBook Pro as my main computer but it could easily have been an iMac or a PC desktop. I have the mini on the desk and share a keyboard and mouse between it and the MacBook Pro using a really great app called teleport. This setup works really works great. The mini serves primarily as a test platform for my clients to test out changes I make to their 4D served web sites without touching their production data. So it is always running 4D Server. It also functions as a client to test multi user issues. It serves other test functions as well, but I also use it to watch TV or play tunes while I am working and I plan to have it monitor my front door with a web cam.

Teleport is Mac only so it will not work in your case. Check out ShareMouse which works seamlessly with both platforms. I am thinking about giving this one a try myself.

John


John Baughman
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(808) 262-0328
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Tim Nevels
2014-01-03 01:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Anywhooo, I lean toward Desktop machines these days, because I carry my iPad
when I travel or commute. I don't need mobile computing nearly as much as I
used to. So I would prefer a desktop model like the iMac. I wish I could do
the same thing that I did with my PC: just buy the CPU and use my existing
monitors.
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use for testing
4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive alternatives. Maybe I
will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and attach a monitor to it.
Don't overlook the Mac Mini. It will give you what you want -- if what you want is the lowest possible price for a new Mac and you want to use your existing your monitor. Get a KVM switch and share your existing PC monitor with your Mac Mini. You can also share the USB mouse and keyboard too.

Tim

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Walt Nelson (Manila)
2014-01-03 02:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Survey says...

Mac Mini!

The consensus seems to be that for my purposes, a Mac Mini will be just right. Now I will start shopping around for prices. There are plenty of Apple Authorized stores here in the Philippines: there is one on the 4th floor of my office building, directly below us (we're on the 5th floor). There is another within walking distance of my condo. That's one advantage of living in a big city of more than 11,000,000 (eleven million) people: lots of choices.

Thanks again to all who responded. If I have any more questions, I won't hesitate to ask. And if you have any more suggestions (e.g. the KV switch), I will appreciate your input.

Regards,

Walt Nelson
Walt Nelson & Associates
Walt-5LYxqKIAaTPSUeElwK9/***@public.gmane.org
(63) 918 803 8933
Sent from my iPad
Post by Tim Nevels
Post by Walt Nelson (Manila)
Anywhooo, I lean toward Desktop machines these days, because I carry my iPad
when I travel or commute. I don't need mobile computing nearly as much as I
used to. So I would prefer a desktop model like the iMac. I wish I could do
the same thing that I did with my PC: just buy the CPU and use my existing
monitors.
New 27" iMacs with 8GB of RAM clock in at prices from $1800 to $2,100 so
that is more than double what I paid for my PC with less computing power.
That's a lot of cash to pay for a machine that I will just use for testing
4D, so I'll keep looking around for less expensive alternatives. Maybe I
will just get a laptop machine with 4GB and attach a monitor to it.
Don't overlook the Mac Mini. It will give you what you want -- if what you want is the lowest possible price for a new Mac and you want to use your existing your monitor. Get a KVM switch and share your existing PC monitor with your Mac Mini. You can also share the USB mouse and keyboard too.
Tim
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785-749-3444
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Doug Hall
2014-01-03 04:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Hackintosh?

<
http://lifehacker.com/the-always-up-to-date-guide-to-building-a-hackintosh-o-5841604
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Dennis, Neil
2014-01-03 14:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hall
Hackintosh?
I would assume Walt would want to run legal:

"...you are granted a limited, non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer at any one time..."

In order to run Mac OS legally it needs to run on Apple-branded computers.

Neil

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Mitchell Shiller
2014-01-03 14:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Walt

Now that you have decided on a MacMini (good idea), you should look at refurbished or used recent models.
The MacMini will benefit from more RAM but even more noticeably from the installation of an SSD. Since this is not a primary computer and you don't need to store pictures or music you can likely get by with a 64GB or 128GB Drive. You can get everything you need including installation tools at OWC. They have installation videos to follow.

Way cheaper than Apple installed options and you will be surprised by the performance. Much bigger benefit from the SSD than from the append of a newer chip.

I use these extensively in our setup.

Mitch


Sent from my iPhone
hy? (miyako)
5. Re: Which Mac to Buy?
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Joshua Fletcher
2014-01-03 17:45:06 UTC
Permalink
The only caveat I would throw in here is you're almost throwing money away on a 64 GB or 128 GB drive (the major manufacturers have mostly dropped the 64 GB model). The sweet spot right now in SSD price points is 256 GB with 500 GB getting pretty darn cheap. Take the 840 EVO for example:

http://amzn.com/B00E3W19MO

One other note: in order to fit two drives in the latest Mini the maximum individual drive height is 9.5 mm. The 500 or 1000 GB drive you get with the mini is fine; the limitation comes into play with aftermarket drives. You shouldn't need to worry with any SSD, but any 2.5" HDD over 1 TB is likely to be larger than 9.5 mm.

I'll add another vote for OWC for convenience, they sell a kit with everything you need for the install:

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/internal_storage/Data_Doubler

Kind regards,

Josh
--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc
-----Original Message-----
Post by Mitchell Shiller
Since this is not a primary computer and you don't
need to store pictures or music you can likely get by with a 64GB or 128GB
Drive. You can get everything you need including installation tools at
OWC. They have installation videos to follow.
Chuck Miller
2014-01-03 18:45:08 UTC
Permalink
I just got a 1 terabyte Samsung SSD for about 550 US

Regards

Chuck
Post by Joshua Fletcher
http://amzn.com/B00E3W19MO
One other note: in order to fit two drives in the latest Mini the maximum individual drive height is 9.5 mm. The 500 or 1000 GB drive you get with the mini is fine; the limitation comes into play with aftermarket drives. You shouldn't need to worry with any SSD, but any 2.5" HDD over 1 TB is likely to be larger than 9.5 mm.
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/internal_storage/Data_Doubler
Kind regards,
Josh
--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc
-----Original Message-----
Post by Mitchell Shiller
Since this is not a primary computer and you don't
need to store pictures or music you can likely get by with a 64GB or 128GB
Drive. You can get everything you need including installation tools at
OWC. They have installation videos to follow.
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Stephen J. Orth
2014-01-03 18:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Chuck,

I would be very interested in which drive you bought, as I have only been
able to find 500 gig Samsung SSD drives (at least the PRO version of the
840).

Did you buy the 840 EVO drive?


Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: 4d_tech-bounces-d2/MUvgItPNWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org [mailto:4d_tech-bounces-d2/MUvgItPNWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of Chuck Miller
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2014 12:45 PM
To: 4D iNug Technical
Subject: Re: Which Mac to Buy?

I just got a 1 terabyte Samsung SSD for about 550 US

Regards

Chuck


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Joshua Fletcher
2014-01-03 19:32:27 UTC
Permalink
The 840 Pro is too old; that generation of SSD only had maybe a single 1 TB model in the consumer space (from OCZ, now out of business). The EVO comes in a 1 TB SKU because it uses the newer 3-bits-per-cell TLC NAND.

Slight tangent: this could be an important consideration for a *very* busy server as the TLC NAND has proportionally less lifespan than 2-bit-per-cell MLC. This is not a knock at SSD's, I don't want to perpetuate the myth that SSD's have poor lifespan. But it's the difference between 100 years vs. 200 years of lifespan:

http://us.hardware.info/reviews/4178/10/hardwareinfo-tests-lifespan-of-samsung-ssd-840-250gb-tlc-ssd-updated-with-final-conclusion-final-update-20-6-2013

Kind regards,

Josh
--
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Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc
-----Original Message-----
Post by Stephen J. Orth
I would be very interested in which drive you bought, as I have only been
able to find 500 gig Samsung SSD drives (at least the PRO version of the
840).
Did you buy the 840 EVO drive?
Tim Nevels
2014-01-03 20:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Miller
I just got a 1 terabyte Samsung SSD for about 550 US
Hi Chuck,

Where did you get this drive?

What machine did you put it in?

I want a 1 TB SSD for $550. Where can I buy such a drive?

Tim

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785-749-3444
timnevels-Uj//***@public.gmane.org
********************************************




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Joshua Fletcher
2014-01-03 20:41:27 UTC
Permalink
I'm not Chuck, but I don't think this is a grand mystery :)

http://amzn.com/B00E3W16OU

(what you're looking for is the 840 EVO)

Kind regards,

Josh
--
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Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc
-----Original Message-----
Post by Tim Nevels
I want a 1 TB SSD for $550. Where can I buy such a drive?
Chuck Miller
2014-01-07 02:58:40 UTC
Permalink
I purchased at B& H Photo in New York

Price is now 584 and change it is in my Mac Laptop

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Hard-Drives/ci/13238/N/4294542391+3989453013
Post by Tim Nevels
Post by Chuck Miller
I just got a 1 terabyte Samsung SSD for about 550 US
Hi Chuck,
Where did you get this drive?
What machine did you put it in?
I want a 1 TB SSD for $550. Where can I buy such a drive?
Tim
********************************************
Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
********************************************
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Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
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Tim Nevels
2014-01-03 20:30:55 UTC
Permalink
I've finally figured out compiling and building in v13, and I've dived a
bit into the BuildApp.xml file, where the various build settings can be
established. I'm wanting to be able to build a client/server application
so that the Database Cache Settings on the server are different from my
development machine. To my annoyance, I'm finding that each time I put in
a new client/server built application, these settings revert to the
settings on my 4D Developer copy.
I've searched but could not find any XML keys to put into BuildApp.xml to
set these settings ("Calculation of Adaptive Cache", "Memory to be
reserved for other apps", "Percentage of available memory to be used for
cache", etc.), and I see from the docs that they (Database Cache Size) can
not be set using SET DATABASE PARAMETER, either (v13 language ref, pg
1687).
I'd like to deliver a "plug and play" solution, but to do this it seems
that my development machine has to have the same Database Cache Settings
as I want to have on the built Server. Is this really correct?
Is there a way to define these parameters (4D v13.4, Windows) during build
time, or at least know where they are stored on the server, that that file
can be restored?
You don't want to set the database cache size when you build with v13. Use the v13 external "User Database Settings" feature.

Before you build your app go to Database Settings -> Security and check "Enable User Settings in External File". Build your app and get it running on the production 4D v13 server.

You will see that "Database Settings" menu item now has 2 sub-menu items: Structure Settings, User Settings. You want to change the User Settings. Make the change to the cache. Quit 4D Server. Restart.

From now on 4D Server will use this cache setting. Even when you install a new version of the structure, it will still use this cache setting.

The "User Settings" file is stored in the 4D "Preferences" folder next to the structure file. It's an XML file named "settings.4DSettings". You can create/edit this file programmatically if you want.

Tim

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Ben Kershaw
2014-01-03 20:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua Fletcher
http://amzn.com/B00E3W19MO
One other note: in order to fit two drives in the latest Mini the maximum individual drive height is 9.5 mm. The 500 or 1000 GB drive you get with the mini is fine; the limitation comes into play with >aftermarket drives. You shouldn't need to worry with any SSD, but any 2.5" HDD over 1 TB is likely to be larger than 9.5 mm.
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/internal_storage/Data_Doubler
I'll throw in a few cents here too..

Crucial, being a division of Micron, has a few good options. Their M500 line has some good reviews. 1TB for $507, 500GB for $307. I just ordered a 500GB for my MacBook Pro.

Here is a good (and extensive) deathmatch between the M500 and the 840 EVO: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crucial-m500-1tb-ssd,3551.html

One other thing I'll add: if anyone is thinking about adding an SSD to a Mini as a second drive, many people have run into problems with the SSD as the second drive, and have to hook it up as the main drive and have the existing drive connected as the second.

Regards,
Ben Kershaw
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Sujit Shah
2014-01-04 07:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Will a SSD Drive connected via thunderbolt/ USB3 be as effective? I just
dont want to tinker with the internals of the Mac Mini.
Post by Joshua Fletcher
Post by Joshua Fletcher
The only caveat I would throw in here is you're almost throwing money
away on a 64 GB or 128 GB drive (the major manufacturers have mostly
dropped the 64 GB model). The sweet spot right now >in SSD price points is
Post by Joshua Fletcher
http://amzn.com/B00E3W19MO
One other note: in order to fit two drives in the latest Mini the maximum
individual drive height is 9.5 mm. The 500 or 1000 GB drive you get with
the mini is fine; the limitation comes into play with >aftermarket drives.
You shouldn't need to worry with any SSD, but any 2.5" HDD over 1 TB is
likely to be larger than 9.5 mm.
Post by Joshua Fletcher
I'll add another vote for OWC for convenience, they sell a kit with
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/internal_storage/Data_Doubler
I'll throw in a few cents here too..
Crucial, being a division of Micron, has a few good options. Their M500
line has some good reviews. 1TB for $507, 500GB for $307. I just ordered a
500GB for my MacBook Pro.
Here is a good (and extensive) deathmatch between the M500 and the 840
EVO: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crucial-m500-1tb-ssd,3551.html
One other thing I'll add: if anyone is thinking about adding an SSD to a
Mini as a second drive, many people have run into problems with the SSD as
the second drive, and have to hook it up as the main drive and have the
existing drive connected as the second.
Regards,
Ben Kershaw
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Arnaud de Montard
2014-01-04 11:12:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kirk Brooks
I just
dont want to tinker with the internals of the Mac Mini.
With older macmini, you just need a big knife… and not fear!
ifixit is a good help:
<http://www.ifixit.com/>
--
Arnaud de Montard




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Guy Algot
2014-01-04 21:09:59 UTC
Permalink
I don't even bother with internal drives anymore (unless it's the old Mac Pro). Use an external firewire or thunderbolt RAID. You can upgrade/repair/replace a drive (or computer) anytime you want with zero downtime.
Post by Sujit Shah
Will a SSD Drive connected via thunderbolt/ USB3 be as effective? I just
dont want to tinker with the internals of the Mac Mini.
Post by Ben Kershaw
One other thing I'll add: if anyone is thinking about adding an SSD to a
Mini as a second drive, many people have run into problems with the SSD as
the second drive, and have to hook it up as the main drive and have the
existing drive connected as the second.
Regards,
Ben Kershaw
Later,
Guy

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Guy Algot, Solutions Specialist
Edmonton, Alberta
(780) 974-8538

hardware, installation, training, support, programming, internet
specializing in 4th Dimension
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"Microsoft is a cross between the Borg and the Ferengi. Unfortunately,
they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming."
-- Simon Slavin



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Mike Kerner
2014-01-04 23:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Replacing a hard drive in a mini can be a problem, and can be a delicate
procedure. Last year we bricked one of ours because one of the (very)
delicate connections was severed in the process. Memory is easy to replace
on a mini, though.
Post by Guy Algot
I don't even bother with internal drives anymore (unless it's the old Mac
Pro). Use an external firewire or thunderbolt RAID. You can
upgrade/repair/replace a drive (or computer) anytime you want with zero
downtime.
Post by Sujit Shah
Will a SSD Drive connected via thunderbolt/ USB3 be as effective? I just
dont want to tinker with the internals of the Mac Mini.
Post by Ben Kershaw
One other thing I'll add: if anyone is thinking about adding an SSD to a
Mini as a second drive, many people have run into problems with the SSD
as
Post by Sujit Shah
Post by Ben Kershaw
the second drive, and have to hook it up as the main drive and have the
existing drive connected as the second.
Regards,
Ben Kershaw
Later,
Guy
--
Guy Algot, Solutions Specialist
Edmonton, Alberta
(780) 974-8538
hardware, installation, training, support, programming, internet
specializing in 4th Dimension
=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Microsoft is a cross between the Borg and the Ferengi. Unfortunately,
they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming."
-- Simon Slavin
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On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
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And God said, "This is good."

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David Adams
2014-01-04 23:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Algot
I don't even bother with internal drives anymore
Same. Unless the computer is portable, I'd *much* rather hang all of the
optional components off the outside. That way when any one piece sours,
it's easy to swap out. Likewise, when one piece is replaced, it's easy to
reconfigure things. For hard drives, I keep a lot of boot mirror copies
around and it's often handy to move a cable and reboot a machine from a
different drive.

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Ben Kershaw
2014-01-05 05:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sujit Shah
Will a SSD Drive connected via thunderbolt/ USB3 be as effective? I just
dont want to tinker with the internals of the Mac Mini.
It depends on what you're using it for. An internal SATA drive will generally be faster and will put the load on the controller instead of the CPU as USB does. This will only really matter if the Mini is being used as a server, and is used heavily. Also, a USB drives could get disconnected from the sever - a generally bad thing.

For 99.99% of the time, an external USB3 drive will be fine. It's much easier to manage, and you can go with higher capacity drives since internal 2.5" drives top out at 1TB.

Regards,
Ben Kershaw
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Mitchell Shiller
2014-01-05 06:04:48 UTC
Permalink
All of these are valid comments.
At the end of the day, Walt, it depends on what your priorities are.
-cost
-extent of use
-portability.

You can configure the MacMini as you want, internal or external drives.
One advantage of using only internal drives is that you can throw it in a briefcase and take it with you to demo at a clients office.
This will be the cheapest choice as you don't gave to pay for an external enclosure.
I have modified over 10 Mini / 4 different versions without incidence. Go for it !
Booting up with an external Thunderbolt drive is sufficiently fast.

Good luck

Mitch
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