Discussion:
[admin] message form the admins
(too old to reply)
Charles Miller
2007-02-06 02:28:41 UTC
Permalink
I have been an admin for the 4D lists for a period of time. It does
not go unnoticed by me or others when certain repeat offenders
subscribe the list using names brrowed from literature, movies, what
have you. It is also the same group of people who continually bash
4D, as a product and as a company. The list quality has decreased
dramatically in the past 6 to 7 months . The number of senior
technical 4D people (not employees) who post has decreased as well.
If you think your customers do not subscribe here silently, you are
mistaken, they do. Bashing 4D or the admins is counterproductive.
You want to bash me or have a problem with 4D as a company, fine, do
it on another list not this one. I try to be fair and impartial, I
overlook a lot but am getting weary when the same individuals post on
the same off topic issues. I try and respond in a fair and equitable
manner and am pretty lenient about taking posting privileges away. I
am not the only arbiter. I don not want to make this a moderated
list. I HATE them, but I bet those who are looking for technical only
content would like it this way. Frankly, I do not have the time to do
it. For those who are repeat offenders, I will take action for every
post and disallow all.

Regards


Chuck wearing Inug admin hat

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----




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Ruben Baumann
2007-02-06 18:48:28 UTC
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Mr. Miller,

I am new to this list, and fairly new to 4D. You state that you "try to be
fair and impartial"; I haven't seen any evidence of that. You state that
you don't want this list to be moderated, that you "HATE" moderated lists; I
haven't seen any evidence of that either. I *have* seen evidence of
controlling behavour.

If there has been any degradation of the quality of posts to this lists as
you've implied, you and the other admins that want to throw threats at us
are the cause of it. Any bashing of admins(yourself mostly) seems to be, in
my not so humble opinion, well deserved. Any bashing of 4D as a company or
it's products has been few and far between, and in no way, shape, or form,
constitutes a valid reason to suspend privileges. People have a right to
voice their opinions and yes, their frustrations, regardless of what you
think.

People have questions about how to do something in 4D, or about availability
of plug-ins, availability of third party applications, and questions of
interest regarding 4D's future plans that could affect their businesses -
all these questioners have the right to ask to those questions, and to get
answers. When you or other admins cut off a thread, and threaten to suspend
posting privileges because 4D is being asked questions about it's future
plans - then I have to ask myself - what use is this list at all? Are these
questions getting back to the people that need to see them? Are these
questions going to be answered or ignored? Are the questioners going to be
treated fairly when they ask a question about 4D's future? I understand
about not wanting to come out with "vaporware", but a company that ignores
their partners/business associates, i.e., the people that use that company's
products to make a living, does so at it's peril.

I belong to a number of Comp Lang groups and lists in addition to 4D, and
even the moderated ones don't take this constant threatening tone with the
members. Posting privileges are suspended mostly when inappropriate
language is used, flame wars start up, or topics of a nature that hurts the
group are posted, and the poster in question has been warned at least three
times, and on different occasions. Notice I said a specific poster, not a
whole group of individuals.

Suspension due to a poster questioning the language vendor about his
products future plans or even complaining about how the product works has
never been a valid reason for suspension in those groups/lists, and *should
not be here either!* Most group/list moderators allow such discussions,
because it gives the vendor good information on the tenor of the
users, points out problems that need fixing, and gives them ideas to
incorporate in future releases. Yeah, I know, there are lists to post those
items to, and some may even make it to them. CEO's, chief scientists, and
product managers should be looking at these lists. If not, their probably
going along thinking everything is peachy-dandy. Maybe it is, maybe it
isn't.

It seems to me that part of your problem, is that you are unable to concede
that the members here *do* have valid concerns about 4D's future plans, and
the future of 4D itself - *because it affects the long term future of their
businesses!*

Mr. Miller, you're *wrong! *I am *not* looking for a technical only list,
but a list that can provide answers, and give me insight into the workings,
not only of 4D, but how others manage their applications, what problems they
have, and what solutions are available to correct those problems.

Bottom line - you are *not* fair and unbiased, and if you don't have the
time to administer this list, as you've stated, without resorting to
disallowing all posts you don't like, or making threats, then you need to
excuse yourself as an admin. Because you aren't doing your job.

Now, go ahead and suspend my privileges if you wish. Since this is my first
post, it'll just be indicative of the low regard you hold all posters to
this list.

Sincerely,

Ruben Baumann
Post by Charles Miller
I have been an admin for the 4D lists for a period of time. It does
not go unnoticed by me or others when certain repeat offenders
subscribe the list using names brrowed from literature, movies, what
have you. It is also the same group of people who continually bash
4D, as a product and as a company. The list quality has decreased
dramatically in the past 6 to 7 months . The number of senior
technical 4D people (not employees) who post has decreased as well.
If you think your customers do not subscribe here silently, you are
mistaken, they do. Bashing 4D or the admins is counterproductive.
You want to bash me or have a problem with 4D as a company, fine, do
it on another list not this one. I try to be fair and impartial, I
overlook a lot but am getting weary when the same individuals post on
the same off topic issues. I try and respond in a fair and equitable
manner and am pretty lenient about taking posting privileges away. I
am not the only arbiter. I don not want to make this a moderated
list. I HATE them, but I bet those who are looking for technical only
content would like it this way. Frankly, I do not have the time to do
it. For those who are repeat offenders, I will take action for every
post and disallow all.
Regards
Chuck wearing Inug admin hat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
**********************************************************************
Learn by example. Download free 4D 2004 example applications today!
http://www.4d.com/2004/examples.html
4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
Wiki: <http://www.4dwiki.org/>
**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
Learn by example. Download free 4D 2004 example applications today!
http://www.4d.com/2004/examples.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
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Jaime Herreros
2007-02-06 19:09:32 UTC
Permalink
I think some people (specially those suspended) are misunderstanding
the reason why they are being suspended.
This list is a TECH list. The BIZ and PUB lists are intended for
other kinds of discussions. The suspensions are not because you
offend or question 4Ds future, but simply because the threads are off
topic.

Of course, as I understand and share the rules, I don't want any
answers to this thread (not via the list anyway, I someone wants to
email me directly I have no problem). I'm just trying to make you see
the real reason of the suspensions... IMO. :-)

Jaime
Post by Ruben Baumann
Mr. Miller,
I am new to this list, and fairly new to 4D. You state that you "try to be
fair and impartial"; I haven't seen any evidence of that. You
state that
you don't want this list to be moderated, that you "HATE" moderated lists; I
haven't seen any evidence of that either. I *have* seen evidence of
controlling behavour.
If there has been any degradation of the quality of posts to this lists as
you've implied, you and the other admins that want to throw threats at us
are the cause of it. Any bashing of admins(yourself mostly) seems to be, in
my not so humble opinion, well deserved. Any bashing of 4D as a company or
it's products has been few and far between, and in no way, shape, or form,
constitutes a valid reason to suspend privileges. People have a right to
voice their opinions and yes, their frustrations, regardless of what you
think.
People have questions about how to do something in 4D, or about availability
of plug-ins, availability of third party applications, and
questions of
interest regarding 4D's future plans that could affect their
businesses -
all these questioners have the right to ask to those questions, and to get
answers. When you or other admins cut off a thread, and threaten to suspend
posting privileges because 4D is being asked questions about it's future
plans - then I have to ask myself - what use is this list at all?
Are these
questions getting back to the people that need to see them? Are these
questions going to be answered or ignored? Are the questioners going to be
treated fairly when they ask a question about 4D's future? I
understand
about not wanting to come out with "vaporware", but a company that ignores
their partners/business associates, i.e., the people that use that company's
products to make a living, does so at it's peril.
I belong to a number of Comp Lang groups and lists in addition to 4D, and
even the moderated ones don't take this constant threatening tone with the
members. Posting privileges are suspended mostly when inappropriate
language is used, flame wars start up, or topics of a nature that hurts the
group are posted, and the poster in question has been warned at least three
times, and on different occasions. Notice I said a specific
poster, not a
whole group of individuals.
Suspension due to a poster questioning the language vendor about his
products future plans or even complaining about how the product works has
never been a valid reason for suspension in those groups/lists, and *should
not be here either!* Most group/list moderators allow such
discussions,
because it gives the vendor good information on the tenor of the
users, points out problems that need fixing, and gives them ideas to
incorporate in future releases. Yeah, I know, there are lists to post those
items to, and some may even make it to them. CEO's, chief
scientists, and
product managers should be looking at these lists. If not, their probably
going along thinking everything is peachy-dandy. Maybe it is,
maybe it
isn't.
It seems to me that part of your problem, is that you are unable to concede
that the members here *do* have valid concerns about 4D's future plans, and
the future of 4D itself - *because it affects the long term future of their
businesses!*
Mr. Miller, you're *wrong! *I am *not* looking for a technical only list,
but a list that can provide answers, and give me insight into the workings,
not only of 4D, but how others manage their applications, what
problems they
have, and what solutions are available to correct those problems.
Bottom line - you are *not* fair and unbiased, and if you don't have the
time to administer this list, as you've stated, without resorting to
disallowing all posts you don't like, or making threats, then you need to
excuse yourself as an admin. Because you aren't doing your job.
Now, go ahead and suspend my privileges if you wish. Since this is my first
post, it'll just be indicative of the low regard you hold all
posters to
this list.
Sincerely,
Ruben Baumann
Post by Charles Miller
I have been an admin for the 4D lists for a period of time. It does
not go unnoticed by me or others when certain repeat offenders
subscribe the list using names brrowed from literature, movies, what
have you. It is also the same group of people who continually bash
4D, as a product and as a company. The list quality has decreased
dramatically in the past 6 to 7 months . The number of senior
technical 4D people (not employees) who post has decreased as well.
If you think your customers do not subscribe here silently, you are
mistaken, they do. Bashing 4D or the admins is counterproductive.
You want to bash me or have a problem with 4D as a company, fine, do
it on another list not this one. I try to be fair and impartial, I
overlook a lot but am getting weary when the same individuals post on
the same off topic issues. I try and respond in a fair and equitable
manner and am pretty lenient about taking posting privileges away. I
am not the only arbiter. I don not want to make this a moderated
list. I HATE them, but I bet those who are looking for technical only
content would like it this way. Frankly, I do not have the time to do
it. For those who are repeat offenders, I will take action for every
post and disallow all.
Regards
Chuck wearing Inug admin hat
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
---
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
----
*********************************************************************
*
Learn by example. Download free 4D 2004 example applications today!
http://www.4d.com/2004/examples.html
4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
Wiki: <http://www.4dwiki.org/>
*********************************************************************
*
**********************************************************************
Learn by example. Download free 4D 2004 example applications today!
http://www.4d.com/2004/examples.html
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FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
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Paul Mohammadi
2007-02-06 20:09:54 UTC
Permalink
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Hi Jaime,

First off, by the virtue of you replying to Ruben's email, you're eligible
for suspension as I am for replying to yours. How does that make you feel?

Secondly, in my case and Martin's case an over zealot admin (probably not
Charles) took it upon himself to remove our emails from the nug list without
any warnings or merit. Subsequent conversation with Charles and the rest of
the non 4D admins confirmed that no such act had taken place and yet no
email........This cowardice act is unforgivable and sly.

Thirdly, there is no rhyme or reason as to what someone sees as a valid
thread or not. There was a thread here about Deepsky and how lack of
support from a plug-in publisher is halting projects for some folks... a
very valid thread but yet it was asked to end
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck is that
all about and yet in another thread people are talking about Florida
attractions and there was no word of a halting thread.

I was suspended for voicing concern over 2004's reliability.... I was
attacked for chiding 4D for releasing software that caused nothing but
delays for my projects and it is actually still causing delays and yet not
one admin saw it necessary to step in and say something to people who were
obviously intentionally committing the attacks... I guess reliability and
stability are not considered technical issues here!

I cant say I agree with 100% of what Reuben says but rest assured I feel
he is more right than wrong. There is a bias in this forum, it has lead to
bad feelings, misunderstandings and anger.

There was a spirit of independence that used to govern this list.... and
sadly it's gone, if you read the charter, you can see how it even affords
more "rights" for "some" long standing participants than others.


Best

Paul (most likely suspended member)

Here is a Tip to all the Admins... when you see a thread go on with 20 or 30
replies, it is an obvious indication that the thread is a valid topic and
has interest. It is not up to you to decide when it should end <PERIOD>

Disclaimer, I am not singling out anyone here, just calling it as it
happens.

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Jack Caviness
2007-02-07 00:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Jamie

I disagree with your post. Off-topic postings have been tolerated by
the list moms for seemingly endless strings. However, when any post
seems to question 4D or the List Admins, threats and suspensions
follow in rapid fashion. This has become a moderated list, and a very
heavy-handed one at that.

Since I only post about once a year, go ahead and suspend my posting
privileges.

Jack Caviness
Post by Jaime Herreros
I think some people (specially those suspended) are misunderstanding
the reason why they are being suspended.
This list is a TECH list. The BIZ and PUB lists are intended for
other kinds of discussions. The suspensions are not because you
offend or question 4Ds future, but simply because the threads are
off topic.
Of course, as I understand and share the rules, I don't want any
answers to this thread (not via the list anyway, I someone wants to
email me directly I have no problem). I'm just trying to make you
see the real reason of the suspensions... IMO. :-)
Jaime
Post by Ruben Baumann
Mr. Miller,
I am new to this list, and fairly new to 4D. You state that you "try to be
fair and impartial"; I haven't seen any evidence of that. You state that
you don't want this list to be moderated, that you "HATE" moderated lists; I
haven't seen any evidence of that either. I *have* seen evidence of
controlling behavour.
If there has been any degradation of the quality of posts to this lists as
you've implied, you and the other admins that want to throw threats at us
are the cause of it. Any bashing of admins(yourself mostly) seems to be, in
my not so humble opinion, well deserved. Any bashing of 4D as a company or
it's products has been few and far between, and in no way, shape, or form,
constitutes a valid reason to suspend privileges. People have a right to
voice their opinions and yes, their frustrations, regardless of what you
think.
People have questions about how to do something in 4D, or about availability
of plug-ins, availability of third party applications, and questions of
interest regarding 4D's future plans that could affect their businesses -
all these questioners have the right to ask to those questions, and to get
answers. When you or other admins cut off a thread, and threaten to suspend
posting privileges because 4D is being asked questions about it's future
plans - then I have to ask myself - what use is this list at all?
Are these
questions getting back to the people that need to see them? Are these
questions going to be answered or ignored? Are the questioners going to be
treated fairly when they ask a question about 4D's future? I understand
about not wanting to come out with "vaporware", but a company that ignores
their partners/business associates, i.e., the people that use that company's
products to make a living, does so at it's peril.
I belong to a number of Comp Lang groups and lists in addition to 4D, and
even the moderated ones don't take this constant threatening tone with the
members. Posting privileges are suspended mostly when inappropriate
language is used, flame wars start up, or topics of a nature that hurts the
group are posted, and the poster in question has been warned at least three
times, and on different occasions. Notice I said a specific poster, not a
whole group of individuals.
Suspension due to a poster questioning the language vendor about his
products future plans or even complaining about how the product works has
never been a valid reason for suspension in those groups/lists, and *should
not be here either!* Most group/list moderators allow such discussions,
because it gives the vendor good information on the tenor of the
users, points out problems that need fixing, and gives them ideas to
incorporate in future releases. Yeah, I know, there are lists to post those
items to, and some may even make it to them. CEO's, chief scientists, and
product managers should be looking at these lists. If not, their probably
going along thinking everything is peachy-dandy. Maybe it is, maybe it
isn't.
It seems to me that part of your problem, is that you are unable to concede
that the members here *do* have valid concerns about 4D's future plans, and
the future of 4D itself - *because it affects the long term future of their
businesses!*
Mr. Miller, you're *wrong! *I am *not* looking for a technical only list,
but a list that can provide answers, and give me insight into the workings,
not only of 4D, but how others manage their applications, what problems they
have, and what solutions are available to correct those problems.
Bottom line - you are *not* fair and unbiased, and if you don't have the
time to administer this list, as you've stated, without resorting to
disallowing all posts you don't like, or making threats, then you need to
excuse yourself as an admin. Because you aren't doing your job.
Now, go ahead and suspend my privileges if you wish. Since this is my first
post, it'll just be indicative of the low regard you hold all posters to
this list.
Sincerely,
Ruben Baumann
Post by Charles Miller
I have been an admin for the 4D lists for a period of time. It does
not go unnoticed by me or others when certain repeat offenders
subscribe the list using names brrowed from literature, movies, what
have you. It is also the same group of people who continually bash
4D, as a product and as a company. The list quality has decreased
dramatically in the past 6 to 7 months . The number of senior
technical 4D people (not employees) who post has decreased as well.
If you think your customers do not subscribe here silently, you are
mistaken, they do. Bashing 4D or the admins is counterproductive.
You want to bash me or have a problem with 4D as a company, fine, do
it on another list not this one. I try to be fair and impartial, I
overlook a lot but am getting weary when the same individuals post on
the same off topic issues. I try and respond in a fair and equitable
manner and am pretty lenient about taking posting privileges away. I
am not the only arbiter. I don not want to make this a moderated
list. I HATE them, but I bet those who are looking for technical only
content would like it this way. Frankly, I do not have the time to do
it. For those who are repeat offenders, I will take action for every
post and disallow all.
Regards
Chuck wearing Inug admin hat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
**********************************************************************
Learn by example. Download free 4D 2004 example applications today!
http://www.4d.com/2004/examples.html
4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
Wiki: <http://www.4dwiki.org/>
**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
Learn by example. Download free 4D 2004 example applications today!
http://www.4d.com/2004/examples.html
4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
Learn by example. Download free 4D 2004 example applications today!
http://www.4d.com/2004/examples.html
4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
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Chuck Miller
2007-02-06 23:33:14 UTC
Permalink
OK no more posts. I know I started it as a statement as to why
certain individuals had lost posting privileges. I thank those who
are supporting me and am not concerned with hose who are not. This is
a technical list. When te topic is not technical. I ask it be moved.
So do so with this topic. Either email off list or move to pub list
were everything goes.

If you want answers to your questions email me directly and I will
try and respond.


Regards - Chuck wearing iNug admin at
On Feb 6, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Ruben Baumann wrote:




------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
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**********************************************************************
Cool parts, ready to use. Get the Form Object Libraries for 4D 2004
today.
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4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
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Bernd Fröhlich
2007-02-07 09:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Mohammadi
Here is a Tip to all the Admins... when you see a thread go on with 20 or 30
replies, it is an obvious indication that the thread is a valid topic and
has interest. It is not up to you to decide when it should end <PERIOD>
I second that.
Most of the noise on this list comes from "meta-discussions" about
consoring and admins.
None of the threads in this group are of interest to everyone. If a thread
is not of interest to me I simply skip it. But if a lot of people join in,
then it obviously is of interest to a lot of people.
Just stop all the fussing and censoring and the signal to noise ration will
become much better.
My vote is for censoring rude behaviour only and nothing else!

Thats my 2 Eurocent
Bernd Fröhlich

**********************************************************************
Cool parts, ready to use. Get the Form Object Libraries for 4D 2004
today.
http://www.4d.com/products/fol.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
Wiki: <http://www.4dwiki.org/>
Unsub: mailto: 4D_Tech-off-d2/***@public.gmane.org
**********************************************************************
Chuck Miller
2007-02-07 13:45:00 UTC
Permalink
OK Any more posts on this topic will lead to suspension of posting
privileges. I asked that it be moved.



Chuck wearing iNug admin hat




------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----




**********************************************************************
Cool parts, ready to use. Get the Form Object Libraries for 4D 2004
today.
http://www.4d.com/products/fol.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ: <http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html>
Archive: <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech>
Wiki: <http://www.4dwiki.org/>
Unsub: mailto: 4D_Tech-off-d2/***@public.gmane.org
**********************************************************************
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